Sun Kil Moon: Mark Kozelek Tells it Like it Is


Mark Kozelek has been making solid records since the mid-90’s– and his recording career has been anything but by the book. From his early work in the Red House Painters to bouncing back and forth between the Sun Kil Moon moniker to a solo project under his given name, his hushed voice has always defined his sound and the quietude of his instrumentation has become even more delicate since he moved on to a nylon string guitar. He’s even made whole records of cover songs, one of AC/DC deep cuts, and another of quality Modest Mouse gems.

Despite his prolific past and the continued greatness of his rapidly growing discography, it’s only recently that the “taste makers” in the music press mafia given him his due credit. And it’s come at what may seem like the strangest of times. Recently Kozelek has become exceedingly honest, almost uncomfortably so. His lyrics have begun to read like journal entries, delivered with a nonchalance, void of typical phrasing, rhyme scheme and verse-chorus-verse formula.

On his latest record Benji, Kozelek writes about two relatives that died from exploding aerosol cans (… yes, two), watching “The Song Remains the Same”, listening to Pink Floyd’s “Dogs”, his first sexual encounters, sucker-punching a kid in grade school, his reaction to Newtown, and even going to see Postal Service and realizing that he’s going through a midlife crisis while watching his old friend play in a new band. In a way he seems as though he’s letting it all out there, to anyone who cares to listen. And in ways it seems like he played the biggest joke on his listeners and he unexpectedly succeeded. Mark Kozelek has always surprised and delighted. He’s always kept us guessing. And it’s great to see that the world is finally following along. Below is the brief Q-and-A email that Kozelek graciously answered mid-tour in August. Since then he’s gone on to offend much of North Carolina by calling them hillbillies, and wrote a really interesting song with an even more intriguing song title and chorus, “War on Drugs: Suck My Cock”. You can listen to it for free on Kozelek’s website, . Get ready for a Kozelek Christmas record set for November, and in the meantime enjoy the interview.

NG: How often do you play with a band vs solo nowadays? And do you prefer one over the other?

MK: I’m currently in Malmo with a very much-needed night off on a band tour. I like both solo, and band. Solo is nice because it’s logistically less headache. Band stuff is complicated… all of the organizing that comes with it… but when you’re onstage with a band and everything is clicking, it’s pretty uplifting and worth all of the bullshit. Solo is also very nice – it’s more of a 1-on-1 experience. At my roots, I’m a solo artist and overall prefer playing solo.

The last time I saw you, you played in complete darkness with very few candles as your only light, is that a situation you prefer?

Yeah, I don’t like too much light. My shows are usually 2- to 2 and 1/2 hours long, and the heat from the light dehydrates me, make me sweaty and uncomfortable. I also don’t like movement in the light because nylon string guitar is a temperamental instrument. The lights changing cause temperature changes and mess with the guitar tuning.

In this day of reunions, do you ever get offers to reunite the Red House Painters? Do you ever consider? It seems some people have the “if the price is right mentality?”

We have never received 1 offer, and I wouldn’t take it if we did. SKM is doing just fine. That’s where my heart is, and I’m doing A-OK financially.

Were you surprised at the way Benji was received? Was it weird that people say you’ve found your voice or hit your stride after all these years of solid records?

I think if Pitchfork would have gave it a 5.1 and said it was middle-aged ramblings about dead uncles, people would have jumped on that boat and agreed. People have no minds of their own these days and believe whatever the internet tells them to believe. A 25-year- old girl recently told me, “you finally made a masterpiece”. I said, “baby, I’ve been making masterpieces long before Pitchfork existed.” For some people, music history started 5 years ago.

How do you decide on a performance setlist? Is there a mood you feel? Does it remain the same or similar? Are some songs off limits? Is there an art to the order or do you just wing it?

I play whatever I’m inspired to play. Currently it’s material from 2012 onwards.

How do you view the results of starting your own label? Has the freedom made you release more? You seem like your more prolific than ever? Are the ideas flowing that fast or are you releasing as much as possible because you’re not at the mercy of a label’s schedule?

It’s a combination of a lot of things. Yes, labels held me back to some extent, but I also took my time, with songwriting, recording. But it’s like a guy who works in construction– when you first start, you pay attention to all the details– after a while, you just build fucking houses. I make records. That’s just what I do. Some people do this, some do that, I live and breathe music. I go to bed with music in my head.

Why Caldo Verde?

My favorite soup.

You’ve done a bunch of live records? What makes a live show good enough to release? Do you record all your shows? Do you know going into a show that you’re going to release it or does that come later?

I record live shows from time to time. I release many of them for free, as incentive for fans to buy music directly. It’s easy to record solo performances. If the elements come together– the EQ, no digital distortion, performance is good, it might get released.

Do you have a good memory? It seems like a lot of these topics happened a long time ago? Does something trigger the memories to put them into song? Something that made you say, ‘oh I have all these memories why hide behind metaphor, let’s lay it all out there?’

Ah, hard to explain. When you get older, you just start realizing there is no guarantee you have another 20, or even 10 years left. You think about the things that shaped you. I felt the need to pay respect to my roots in this record… to tell both my mother and my father that I loved them, in song.

Now that you’ve gone the autobiographical route, is it hard to consider writing a song that is just pure fiction or covered in a veil of verbiage?

I just write. I don’t think about it. I just respond to my surroundings and my feelings and I write.

I’ve always meant to ask you… you’ve written many songs about others, and Mojave 3 wrote “Krazy Koz” about you. What do you think about that song?

It’s catchy.

How do you differentiate between Sun Kil Moon and Mark Kozelek? 

Ughh… Dude I’m in Malmo on a day off.  I’m really tired…

You seem to lay it all out there? Why do you want people to know your life and does that make it awkward at all? Do people tend to identify with you through your tales, or less so now? Did you in any way think people were ready for truth or was it just something that changed in your songwriting.

Ughh… Man, I’m getting sleepy….

I saw you played Newtown, what was that like? Have you ever played shows where it went from just playing songs to having to play a show to people that you wrote a song to that was so serious?

Newtown is in September. I won’t be playing ‘Newtown’ when I’m in Newtown, just like I don’t play Alesund in Alesund. That would be cliché.

Thank for your time. I’m in the middle of a tour and this is the best I can give you.

all of my best to you,



Wildcat! Wildcat! and the Shimmering Sounds of Summer– The Interview

WWIn today’s industry-driven musical climate, it’s very rare and all the more refreshing to see a band grow strictly through word-of-mouth and hard work. And if there’s any justice out there, you’ll be hearing a lot from Wildcat! Wildcat! in the near future. A Los Angeles three-piece (and sometimes more) featuring Jesse Taylor on bass, Jesse Carmichael on drums and Michael Wilson on keys, the players have known each other since high school, and while they’ve worked together before, Wildcat! Wildcat!’s musical journey began somewhat recently– and at first had no intention of becoming an actual long-term project. Beginning 2013 year with only a limited edition 7-inch and a few tracks on Soundcloud available to their listeners, the band continued to build a loyal hometown fanbase and performed well-populated residencies before hitting the road for SXSW. Playing eight shows in just four days, they quickly became my favorite discovery of 2013’s festival and became known around Austin as one of the festival’s hardest working unsigned bands. ww-1-11On record, Wildcat! Wildcat!’s sound is a sonic onslaught of majestic and perfectly polished pop electronica, providing an intensive listening experience made for both headphones and dancefloors. The twinkle of the keys provides a blinding, shimmering summertime feel, while thunderous drums and bass-led grooves culminate in three-part falsetto harmonies and addictive melodies leaving their fans hungry for more. ww-1-15 Wildcat! Wildcat!’s exquisite four-song, self-titled EP was released nearly a year ago on Downtown Records, with their first LP hitting stores last week. The band came through Boston this week and showed they still had that magic summer sound and a slew of great new songs. I caught up with Michael Wilson last year to talk about the band’s future as they got ready to play their first east coast shows. It is most likely one of the first interviews with the band. No, it’s not completely current, but it’s not outdated either. Enjoy, and check them out at ww-1-13 Hey is this Michael?

Yes this is Michael.

Where are you at now?

We are in Indiana.

That’s a pretty epic journey from LA to Montreal.

Yeah it’s pretty nuts. It’s definitely the most gnarly journey I’ve ever had in a car. I think we did 32 hours straight the first day or whatever you want to call it. Stupid is probably what you would call it.

I caught you guys down in Texas and you were one of the best things I saw down there. I know you guys played a ton out there and were warriors at that festival.

Which ones did you see?

I saw the Sonos show and the Fader day party on the last day.

Those were really good shows for us. We weren’t even sure we were going to make it that far.

ww-1-8 So you guys were doing one tour and now you’ve totally changed to doing another tour.

Yeah it’s super intense in this business and things change so quickly and it’s funny because you usually have a while to make these “big” decisions, but then the big decisions all of a sudden need to be changed in like four hours. We had literally four hours to find out whether we wanted to change the dates or not, and it was really hard for us because even though we hadn’t sold a ton of tickets, we really appreciate people buying tickets early. It was really hard for us to play our own show, but we are basically trying to work out some other things. We basically created an email account specifically for that reason and so that people can reach out to us. We’re trying facilitate things so people can come see us quicker, maybe even to some of the Ms. Mr. dates.

When I saw you in Texas, you guys were a four-piece, but everything I’m reading about you only mentions three people. Was that just a rare occurrence?

No, as far as live goes it’s always been four and it will probably always be four because we don’t ever want to be a track-heavy band. We want to always play the music that you hear. There are really minimal background sounds that we put on tracks, but as far as main parts, when we’re on stage you’re never wondering where certain sounds are coming from. We always have a four-piece live, but as far as writing and producing and band decisions, it’s always been me and the two Jesses. We just hire guys out. It’s another tough situation as far as who plays and if they’re friends or not. Sometimes it can be bit sticky with that situation because it’s really hard to explain that situation. They’re in the band essentially and everyone sees them onstage and they’re playing the parts, but they’re not really in the band I guess.

There’s very little information about you guys out there, which is intriguing. It says that you guys have known each other forever and played in other bands, is that true?

Essentially, yes. I’ve known them since I was 14. We all pretty much met in high school. I had done a few isolated projects with them individually, mostly with Jesse Carmichael. I never really played with Jesse Taylor, but they had been in bands together, probably too many to count. They are on another level as far as knowing each other musically. They’ve been playing together forever and I just kind of jumped in there and started working from there.

What was the sound of their other bands? Was it at all similar?

No, it was way different. They were doing more traditional guitar and bass music. I don’t even think they ever had keys in their music at all. Maybe a few little shimmers here and there. I think that was just more my musical influence on them. I think its funny because we started making these songs and they were stems from some of my ideas, so there were no guitars, just keys. We’ve obviously thought about putting guitars in there and we’ve tried a few times, but I think it’s just fine as it is and we are happy how it sounds. I think when some people come to see us live they think we’ll be less than or not as good as a traditional indie band with a guitar on stage, but I think people are okay with us not having one.

ww-1 It’s cool seeing you guys perform live. Even though you have an electronic sound you’re playing actual instruments. When did you guys first conceive this project?

I think we played our first show Jaunary 31, 2012, so it will be two years in February. It was literally supposed to be just one show that we just wanted to play. We landed up putting out a couple songs before the show and it landed up being super-packed, which was really weird for us because we didn’t expect that at all. But sometimes these things happen with the internet these days. It’s good because there was a moment there when we had to decide if we were going to slingshot forward into very fast decisions like getting managers, getting agents and getting all these people onboard super fast and work on their time schedule, but we chose to kind of get to know ourselves and our sound and our band a little bit more. It felt a bit quick. Not that it’s a bad thing, but I think we are definitely benefiting from it because we know who we are as a band and what we’re going for and the trajectory of what we are about which is more or less gaining one fan at a time and making good albums, not just making good isolated songs. We want to make good songs, but to make them part of a collection.

When along the way did getting signed happen?

Actually it was just recently. It’s funny because we kind of went away. After we got on the scene initially, we went away to finish up our album. I don’t think that’s traditionally how you are supposed to do it because you can get off of people’s radars and finally when we had this demoed album out and we started sending them off to labels some of them were like “Hey you’re a new band, and we like your music a lot, but we just don’t know if the investment is there.” Which is fine. We didn’t want anyone to be half onboard. We were in limbo for a little bit and didn’t really know what we were doing. And even though it wasn’t necessarily what we wanted to do, Downtown had offered to do the EP and see how the partnership works and how we are together. So essentially it was a couple of months ago now. It’s an EP deal with and option for a full length.

ww-1-7 So you have a full-length ready, but you don’t know where it will end up?

I mean, it’s hard to say, but we are definitely wanting it to be on Downtown. We want to get our music out as quickly as possible. We don’t have that many fans, but the fans we have have definitely waited a while. We also move on as artists as well. We want to do a new album and write more. We basically want to take the path that would get the music out quicker. We had mentioned early next year like March or April and we’re really striving for that. We would love it to be on Downtown and things are looking good as far as that goes, but you never know.

Will the songs that have been out there, the ones on the EP, appear on the new record?

It’s pretty funny because a lot of people on the business side are wanting to put some of them out there, but we feel like we would cap it at one song. We want to give people new stuff and we are excited about the new stuff and not really worried about people missing the old stuff, especially because it’s on the EP as well. We don’t feel like we’ve extended ourselves and don’t feel like we can’t write more songs.

How many songs do you have ready to go?

It’s tough to say because there are alternate versions and depending on how we want the album to flow they can be switched out. Basically we have staple songs that we definitely know will be on the album.

ww-1-5 Are these your first ever east coast shows coming up?

Oh yeah, we were able to come out to New York and played a pre-VMA show and that’s the only time we’ve ever been on the east coast.

As far as songwriting goes, is it a unified effort or is there someone who does more than the rest?

Totally, we all have our strengths and the process is different every time, which we really like. We all trust the process enough to know where a song starts and if we stick with it til the end we know it will be a Wildcat song because it will go through all our filters and all of our individual musician gears and our talents are going to come out on that song. It’s pretty even and we all have our hand in each part of the song. If there was something of a starting point, the keys goes are on my end, the groove stuff with drum and bass is Jesse and Jesse and vocals and melodies are all of us.

Was it strange to play with only a 7” out and have all of these people coming to all these shows?

It was really strange because they started singing the songs that weren’t even out. They knew the songs because they had been to so many shows. And that goes with what I was saying earlier, people are so hungry for songs that people are coming to the shows just to hear the songs. They know them already. We know if we put it out that there’s going to be more of those people– maybe not millions– but people that want to come along to the shows and sing along which we are all about. We want to give our music and have people enjoy it.

ww-1-6 Are you guys all from LA or did you land up there?

Yeah, we all grew up in Ventura Country, which is like 40 miles north of LA. The two Jesse’s live in downtown LA now, and I live in Long Beach.

Were you able to quit your jobs?

Somewhat– it was a bit of a progression as far as that goes. Right now none of us have conventional day jobs. Every month getting money is different. We are by no means solely supported by music. There are different avenues we have to make money. It’s exciting, but it’s nerve-racking to not know how you’re going to pay your bills without the consistency of a job.

ww-1-3 Who is Mr. Quiche?

I don’t know. It was definitely a progression of writing that all of our songs have been. I think the vocals are definitely a process. He’s been a different person every step of the way to be honest. Which, to be honest, I kind of like that. I like songs that change their meaning, even for the artist. We’ve been changing as a band a lot even just over our past few years.

From what I remember you did 4-part harmonies.

Yeah, it’s definitely all about that and our group effort. It shows that everybody is equal and there are definitely songs where only one person is singing, but there are no songs where just one person is the lead singer. It just kind of fills the thing out. We are all really good friends making music and really participating in every ounce of the song.

As far as lyrics and background, do you start with the backing sound? Is one more important than the other?

Sometimes, especially working with some of my original ideas, there were really loose vocals or an idea, but there would be a larger arrangement before it. But recently there has been a little more of the opposite. With a lot of the stuff we are taking the lyricism of the song first and it really is different every time. That makes everything really fresh and exciting for all of us.

Is there are marked difference between recording a song and playing it live? Obviously you have less access to certain elements when you’re on stage.

Yeah, we kind of had to learn a lot of it. It was just a project that we were doing for fun and for ourselves and for us to listen to on our own and be excited about. It was just one of those things that at first we recorded the songs in parts and then we had to figure out how we are going to play it. A lot of the stuff is different live because there are too many keyboard parts and we don’t have enough hands to play all the keyboards. Parts need to be thought through, but I really enjoyed that because we really wanted us to really embody the song live in the performance and really wail and have a good time to make up for any different parts that maybe we can’t put in the song.

Do you feel like there’s a unified scene in LA? Do you guys feel that you have a lot of camaraderie with other bands?

To be honest it’s such a big music town that it’s just so hard to find that. We definitely have bands that we get along with and have played shows with, but there are so many. I think it’s almost more venue-based than promoter-based. They basically choose who they like, and in LA there are also huge booking agents booking huge bands that everybody wants to see. I wouldn’t say we’re part of any LA scene or movement or anything like that.

Well thanks for taking the time to talk to me. I’m so happy you’re finally coming east. It’s very exciting.

You should definitely come say hi. No problem. You were a very nice interviewer.

One Big Holiday: A Detailed account of My Morning Jacket’s 2014 Mexican Festival Fiesta and a Look Ahead at Next Year’s All Star Lineup

This past week My Morning Jacket announced that they will return to the Hard Rock Hotel on Mexico’s Mayan Riviera for a second installment of their epic and idealistic rock n roll getaway known as “One Big Holiday”. From  January 31- February 4th, MMJ will curate their south-of-the-border festival joined by friends and favorites Dr. Dog, Dawes, Band of Horses, Preservation Hall Jazz Band, The War on Drugs and special deejay sets from the lovable Biz Markie. For ticketing and more details, go to

As we get ready for the first great festival of 2015, let’s look back at the magic that came with the festival’s premiere earlier this year………

photo 3They planned ahead and they planned right. They came from all over. Many narrowly escaped the sub-zero temperatures of their hometowns and every one was somehow able to put a temporary hold on all the trials and tribulations of their typical workweek and head for old Mexico to attend a festival trying to encapsulate an ideal world within a song. This was My Morning Jacket’s “One Big Holiday”.

Many months in the making, the newly unveiled Hard Rock Hotel on the Mayan Riviera played host to a four-day fiesta curated by MMJ. A rock and roll destination vacation for the adventurous, the all-inclusive stay-and-play festival was exclusive only to those who had booked the total experience. You could come and go as you pleased, but no one from the outside was allowed entry.

lj-1A strange and magical trip indeed, the Hard Rock seemed like a well-guarded fortress for great music. The event began on Sunday, and while My Morning Jacket was the only band scheduled to play that day, it didn’t mean the evening would be light on entertainment. Tearing through two sets totaling 2.5 hours, the show marked the band’s first show of the year and their first performance since Neil Young’s Bridge School benefit back in October.

Suspense built as the crowd gathered, and the dream became a reality as My Morning Jacket opened with the summoning song “Circuital”. Jim James took stage wearing south-of-the-border garb looking like some sort of Peruvian mystic. Stars filled the sky as the breeze from the ocean blew the band’s long hair horizontal like some sort of wind machine.

mmj-1-14“First Light”, another song from Circuital transitioned into the much older and now classic, ‘The Way That He Sings’ followed by a stellar and strange early-set cover of Bruce Springsteen’s “Hungry Heart”. “Heartbreakin’ Man” and “Evelyn Is Not Real” gave fans a sweet taste from the debut record while “Masterplan” was re-worked with a sinister alternate beginning. The epic “Steam Engine” ended with a comedown of shimmering keys and the drum blasts of “Smoking from Shooting” rang out like gunshots.

mmj-1-2After a brief intermission, the band returned and laid the groundwork for a more mellow mood with the tracks “Wonderful”, “Welcome Home” and “Slow Slow Tune”. Just when you thought it couldn’t get any better, a figure emerged from the shadows. It was Bob Weir of the Grateful Dead looking like a sun-soaked Samuel Clements (or Mark Twain if you prefer).

mmj-1-4The band had met and performed with Weir on last year’s tour with Bob Dylan and began in suit with “Knocking on Heaven’s Door” before running through two classic Grateful Dead tunes, “I Know You Rider” and “Brown Eyed Women”.

While My Morning Jacket refuses to understand their association with jam band culture, moments like these make it hard to ignore the connection. And I mean that in the best way.

lj-1-4After bidding farewell to Mr. Weir, the band ventured into a truncated take on their 24-minute track “Cobra”, merging it with a crowd-pleasing rendition of Erykah Badu’s “Tyrone” and ending their 20-song performance with an especially fiery version of “Mahgeetah”.

mmj-1-3Excessive sun and open bars have been known to lead to arguments and general poor behavior, but this wasn’t your ordinary festival setting. Unlike most festivals, everyone was here for the same reason, to see a band that prides itself on peace and love and leads by example. It was Night Two and all was well.

Opening tonight’s show was a show-sharing favorite of MMJ’s– the Preservation Hall Jazz Band. Performing as an 8-piece, the multi-generational New Orleans ensemble set the mood with a 15- minute ode to their fair city. With two tubas, a trumpet, trombone, clarinet, drums, keys and a saxophone, the band was dressed to the nines accessorizing with infectious smiles and an unmatched benevolence as they danced their way through their set and into everyone’s hearts.

mmj-1Ending an hour-long brass-wailing set, the PHJB brought out special guest Bob Weir who had played with the band years and years ago. Adding a guitar to the mix, they merged jazz and blues, and you could tell that the players were having as much fun as their audience.

My Morning Jacket was next, and while the night before had been filled with epic surprises, there was no doubt in anyone’s mind that they could continue to blow the minds of the masses. A true treat for fans of the early records, the band began with “The Dark” and “Xmas Curtain”, “The Bear” and a special treat, a cover of Elton John’s “Rocket Man”. Unbeknown to some, “Rocket Man” was actually released as a teaser to their first record on a Little Darla Has A Treat For You compilation back in 1999.

lj-1-8After the fun yet sinister, falsetto-fueled “Evil Urges” it was back to the old days again with “War Begun”, “I Will Sing to You” and the ever-evolving “Phone Went West”.

Returning from a set break it was back in time with a devastating solo rendition of “Bermuda Highway”, “Old September Blues” and an extended version of “Picture of You”.

Fans of classic MMJ covers were then treated to the Velvet Underground’s “Oh Sweet Nothing” which was best played at Neil Young’s benefit with an all star cast on the day Lou died. Tonight’s, however, was nothing short of amazing as most of the crowd knew the words and sang along.

lj-1-6Bringing out their friends from Preservation Hall, MMJ continued with the creepy, mysterious “Holding On to Black Metal” and the robotic, disco-dance, omnichord-powered “Touch Me I’m Going to Scream”.

lj-1-5If you thought you’d seen the last of Bob Weir, you were wrong. Still in town from his shows last week he came out one last time and began with a chilling version of the Beatles’ “Dear Prudence”. A true, true highlight, the song perfectly toed the line of evil and innocence. After Jim said that he’d been snorkeling with Bob earlier that morning Bob replied somewhat seriously, “Some of my best friends are fish.” Perhaps it was a pun.

From here on it was party time again as PHJB, Weir and My Morning Jacket continued the covers with nods to Chuck Berry’s “Never Can Tell”, Al Johnson’s “Carnival Time” and Curtis Mayfield’s “Move On Up”. As the special guests left the stage, the Jacket ended Night Two with “Gideon” from the album Z.

lj-1-9Night Three was an off day for My Morning Jacket, but they handpicked a wallop of entertainment. Mariachi El Bronx, a southbound detour and sideproject of the LA punk band, The Bronx got things started playing their first ever show in Mexico. Singing primarily in English, the backing instrumentation was the perfect compliment to an evening in ole Mexico. The horns blasted in a triumphant fashion while the deep-bodied guitarron hit the lows as the violin hit the highs and got the night’s mood in full swing.

mmj-1-10The Flaming Lips were up next and, as always, were a spectacle to be reckoned with. Changing gears from their confetti and crowd surfing in a plastic ball of positiviity, the band’s new stage presence has a lurking evil within it. The guitars were more piercing, the bass more bone-rattling, the visuals are more terrorizing, and yet the Lips still deliver that transcendent understanding. Flying the freak flag, Wayne took a jack-in-the-pulpit climb upon a mini-mountain with LED arteries flashing lights like rainbow blood flowing through the veins of the stage.

mmj-1-8Always gracious and constantly asking for the audience’s reassurance, Wayne dressed like an early spaceman, equipped with true Moon Boots and hair like a helmet. Merging new tracks with highlights from Soft Bulletin the band even dipped deep down rehashing “Unconsciously Screaming” from the vaults. The covers continued as Wayne dedicated David Bowie’s “Heroes” to Bob Weir.

mmj-1-7The Lips foraged on, and the focus was again directed toward the Beatles as the band belted out an especially psychedelic “Lucy In The Sky With Diamonds,” followed by an especially dark and weighty ‘She’s So Heavy”. The emotional rollercoaster ended with the Lips’ signature majestic existentialist anthem “Do You Realize?”

mmj-1-11I’m sure Night Four must have been epic. Three days in and My Morning Jacket had yet to repeat a song– a true testament to their versatility and longevity. There is no filler. It’s all part of the whole. The total experience, from the friends to the fans, shows just how far the band has come. They’ve changed creatively and stylistically, never dismissing where they came from and never questioning where they’re headed.

As for this reporter, I wouldn’t see the final day. I didn’t question where I was headed either. I was headed back to Boston and back to reality.


30 Years After Andy Kaufman’s Death: An Interview with Former Girlfriend Lynne Margulies


In honor and remembrance of Andy Kaufman, the great performance artist, comedian and self-proclaimed “song-and-dance man,” 30  years after his death, I give to you the complete, extensive interview sessions I shared with the major players surrounding the release of last year’s debut and posthumous comedy record, Andy and his Grandmother. Released by Drag City, the LP/CD/MP3 was a collection of over 80 hours of Kaufman source material and ideas recorded on microcassette from 1977-79. Referencing his intent to make a experimental comedy record from his ramblings, practical jokes and provocative phone pranks, Rodney Ascher and Vernon Chatman edited the 80-hours down to 48 minutes of strategically arranged soundbites that they hope maintain Kaufman’s desired attitude, delivery and overall product. The following interviews were conducted for a story published on August 30, 2013 and can be viewed here:

The final interview in this exclusive sneak peak series is with Lynne Margulies. The last and most important piece of the puzzle, Lynne was Andy’s girlfriend and was there with him when he died in 1984. Lynne was a gracious interview subject, quick to provide answers to all our questions, she constantly refered to Andy’s life as a work of art, completely ahead of his time. We were lucky enough to have interviewed someone who knew Andy so well, and we thank Lynne for her time and shared reminiscence.

Hello Lynne, this is Nolan from Esquire. How are you?

Hello Nolan, I’m fine. I’m just getting up. I’m a late-nighter. I’m actually getting up early to talk to you.

Well I appreciate it. I’m a late-nighter too. I really appreciate it.

No problem. Just having my morning coffee.

So where are you based out of nowadays?

Where do I hang my hat? We live on the Oregon Coast, right by the beach. Oh my God it’s just Heaven. I live in Heaven.

Is it by where they shot the Goonies?

I don’t know where they shot the Goonies. Where was that? I have my Google machine on my lap. Along with my cat. It’s gorgeous here. We’re near Newport ,which is central coast. It’s so inexpensive that we got a house where we’re 500 feet from the beach. I’m looking up filming locations. Oh, Astoria. It’s a bit north of here, but that’s where we were looking, but we’re about 60 miles below that.

I’ve always thought that the Oregon coastal drive was even more stunning than the California coast. It’s more archaic.

It’s on a par. I mean the California coast is so beautiful, it’s almost like you can’t touch it. It’s almost like it’s not at a human level. The Oregon coast is at a human level. You know what I mean?


Well let’s just get down to that boring Andy Kaufman (laughs).

So why now? And when did you decide to let these tapes come to light? Was it something you considered for a long time, or is it something you found that you forgot about?

Here’s how it worked. Andy had done all this recording and he and Bob Zmuda had the idea for Andy to carry these tapes around. Andy always loved comedy records like Steve Allen put one out called “Funny Phonecalls” and Jerry Lewis would call people in the middle of the night and record it. Andy loved that so he always had the idea of making a record with these recordings. He told me about it and when he was sick he made me promise, like he made me promise with other things like “I’m from Hollywood,” to get as much as I could out there. One of those things was the record. It was always in my head that I was always going to try, but I didn’t have the faintest idea of how I was going to do it. When I put the book out, “Dear Andy Kaufman, I hate your guts,” I told Jodie about the tapes. She actually put me in touch with Dan at Drag City and said, “I know someone who might be interested.” That’s how it happened. Jodie and Willie from Process found Drag City for me and Dan and I met at a Starbucks in LA and I had this shoebox of tapes that Andy had kept them in and we sat and listened to them and he was like “Oh my god.” That’s actually how it happened. After lugging them around all these years.

So it was all about finding someone to do it or finding a way to find someone to do it?

Yeah because I could have done it, but I would never get around to it. There were like 80 hours of tape, you know. I would listen to little bits and I would think there has to be someone who wants these. Vernon took it on and I’m so thankful. I’m just so busy trying to make a living that I don’t know if I would have gotten to them. Thank god for Drag City and for Vernon.

It’s funny because Drag City is one of my favorite music labels, so I thought it was amazing that it landed up there. I know they have some comedy, but it surprised me nonetheless.

They just saw the potential. I am so happy.

What did you think about the outcome of how they edited it and what landed up on the final product?

I think they did a really good job. They presented so many aspects of Andy. They presented him when he was at the theater in the fight with the ushers. He carried it on. He actually did that. I actually have an affidavit from him suing the theater for this total bogus thing. It captures Andy’s girlfriends—there was that one girl that Andy kept around because she was just so easy to drive crazy. He just loved it. He just strung her along because he was getting such great material. It just captures the Andy that people probably don’t know. They haven’t seen that exact side of him so there’s actually a brand new side of Andy, which is really exciting. After someone dies, to have this brand new material… I think he captured the overall spirit of what Andy was trying to do.

That’s one thing I was wondering about… the names of his girlfriends get bleeped out.. I was curious if you were one of the girlfriends on the tape and if you were hesitant about the material that was coming out?

I’m not on there. I hadn’t met Andy yet when he was doing those recordings. When we met he had stopped and he had stopped for a couple of years. So I’m not on there, but I know who it is because Andy told me about her. He would just drive her crazy. He would say, “I need your signature.” It was hysterical.

So he wasn’t recording people when you guys were together?

No, not any more. He was doing the wrestling thing. His whole focus was wrestling when I met him. His whole focus was even beyond wrestling the women, his focus was on wrestling Lawler. I met him then and that’s what we did all the time.

Are we to assume that the arguments in the tapes are all real and not staged?

Oh yeah! He never told anyone what he was doing. Most of the people had no idea that he was recording them because it was just a microcassette that he kept in his pocket. When he was out in the World recording, out at the World Theater in LA, that guy didn’t know he was being recorded. Andy just did that whole thing just to capture that. And the girl only knew she was being recorded only when he told her, just to make her crazy.

So do you think she knows that these tapes came out and will be made public?

I have no idea because he wasn’t in contact with her anymore. Bob wasn’t in contact anymore. No one knows what she’s doing. No one has heard from her. I kind of wish she would come out of the woodwork and say, “This is me.” But nobody knew how to find her. I didn’t know how to find her. Bob didn’t even remember her last name, so we had to bleep her.

So, a lot of people probably think they’re going to hear a straightforward comedy tape, but in reality this is really more of an audio documentary of sorts. Do you agree?

It’s comedy because it’s Andy’s comedy. Andy loved to get people riled up. To him that was the funniest thing in the world. So, to Andy, this is comedy. But this is not your standard comedy tape. It’s certainly not standup. But people who know what Andy is about should understand the comedy. Certainly someone coming to it who has never heard of him would think “What the hell!?” But then one would hope that would make someone look into Andy and find out what he was all about. Someone maybe who wasn’t born yet could find out more about him.

Is there anything from the recordings you wish made the official release?

To tell you the truth I haven’t listened to everything. Vernon and Dan are the only people on earth who had heard all the hours. I used to pull a tape put at random and listen to it. The main thing for me was the girlfriend stuff because Andy loved that. He had actually told me about the theater incident, but I had never heard that, so I was happy that they found and included that.

Were there notes made along with the recordings or was it just a box of tapes? To what degree did he annotate the tapes?

Andy, what he did, you know how big a microcassette is? He would write on the little card that came with it and scribble what was on each tape. You can read on the tape “World Theater”, “Me and Bob”. Each tape has a log, but not any notes.

At the very end it has the women pleading for the tapes and he says “You’ll just have to take me to court.” Did she ever put up a fight or did she just disappear?

She just disappeared, and I’m not really sure, but I think he just got tired of her eventually. Oh, the other thing I’m really glad ended up on there was him talking to Zmuda about faking his own death. Obviously that’s a huge thing that’s been out there in the world, and now I feel vindicated by it, because here is Bob and him talking about it.

imdbWhat about Man on the Moon [the Kaufman biopic starring Jim Carrey]? Were you happy with the way that turned out and how you were portrayed [by Courtney Love]?

Oh yeah, I was hired as creative consultant. Bob and I were there every second of filming. When the writers were tackling the script, I said to them “I don’t know what you guys are going to write because there’s nothing cinematic about Andy’s life.” Really, the biggest tragedy in his life is that he died. The movie up to that point, there’s nothing cinematic up to that point. I don’t think anyone who knew a person that a movie is based upon is a good person to ask. You know, it’s not Andy. It’s not the Andy I know. Jim did a good job playing someone he never met. It’s a movie that gives you an idea about who the movie is about, but it’s not my Andy. But I doubt that happens with anyone when someone makes a biopic. The person who knew them best goes, “Well it’s a good movie, but…” But Jim did an amazing job, and it was fun—it was fun as hell for me and Bob. I had the best time of my life hanging out for the whole thing. And Courtney tried her best to be me. She tried to get my giggle. You know, for me it was just a blast more than anything. I cried though. I cried a lot. It was very cathartic because I had all of this stuff bottled up for years. The crew was like “Oh here goes Lynne crying again.” That was the reality for everyone because I would cry because something would remind me of him.

So the argumentative Andy on the tape wasn’t the Andy that you knew?

Nope. Nope it’s all Andy riling people up– just like when he did the bad guy wrestler. It’s all just him. That’s his performance—getting people angry. The angrier they got, the happier he was.

What do you think or want the ultimate significance of these tapes to be? Is it just another facet of who he was?

Yeah, it’s a different facet, and it’s a facet that wasn’t out there before. It’s a performance that no one has ever seen. I think my whole mission since Andy died is to keep his legacy is alive. As I said, he made me promise to get these things out, and everything else that I could. I swore to him that I would do everything I could. To me there are a lot of levels to it. There’s keeping Andy’s name and legacy out there. One thing these tapes do is give people who weren’t even born yet an idea of what Andy was life–people who have never even seen Taxi and they’re suddenly going “Oh there’s this guy and he’s doing these amazing things.” He’s being rediscovered once again. So that’s my mission in life as far as Andy goes… to keep his name out there. And these tapes are great because they are brand new. They’re not rehashing anything. It’s just wonderful.

I talked to Rodney who did some editing with Vernon, and he said he had read everything possible on Andy and no one had ever mentioned these tapes. Is that strange?

He only did it for a couple of years, back in the 1970s and he put them away and never talked about them much. He told me about them and he gave them to me, but it wasn’t big for him because he went on to other things. But it was important to him to put an album out. That was the one thing that I knew. Bob knew about them. Andy credits Bob as being co-creator of these tapes because it was Bob’s idea basically. If you read Bob’s book, Bob did this for Norman Wexler and Andy just loved that idea. But most people didn’t know they existed.

He talks a little on the record about Columbia wanting him to make a record. Was there any truth to that, or was that made up?

That was when he was talking to the girl right? No, he didn’t have a record deal. He was just trying to drive her crazy. I’m good friends with Richard Foos, the owner of Rhino records, and Richard said Andy would call him up and talk about these tapes and putting a comedy record out. But he said Andy kept changing his mind about what it would be so nothing came of it. That would have been in the late 1970’s or early 80’s.

I found the part about the “dream comedy” especially fascinating. Did he ever do anything further about that?

Isn’t that amazing?! I like the one about the animals where he’s talking to animals on the phone. As far as that goes, I was surprised when he did that too. As far as I know he didn’t do much like that. I would attach it to things he did at the Improv back in the 70’s and he would bring a sleeping bag out and he would lay down in the sleeping bag and take a nap, but that dream thing was something I’d never heard him mention before.

After the tapes and the book, are there still other things you want to release into the public to add to Andy’s legacy?

Yeah, Bob and I have a lot of stuff we haven’t told yet. And we’re going to. We are going to the true story of everything behind everything. So there is more. We’ve kept a lot of things private and we decided its time.

Since you’re probably the only person I will ever talk to who actually knew Andy Kaufman, is there anything you’d like to say in summation about Andy? I know that’s vague and maybe unfair, but I’d like to hear something all encompassing.

You see… that’s where I told the writers that they were going to have trouble writing about him because there wasn’t anything cinematic about him. The real Andy, the REAL Andy, he was what he did. His whole act was him wanting to have fun. That’s all he did was do stuff like on the tape. Everything was all about having fun and then that would become part of his performance. Then there was the other side of him where when you would talk to him he was just soft-spoken and intelligent. He took meditation very seriously. There’s no mysterious Andy behind any of this. There’s no mysterious Andy that no one gets to see because EVERYTHING he did in his act was just Andy. When he wasn’t doing stuff, he was just quiet. But he was always having fun. He was ALWAYS having fun.

Andy Kaufman: 30 Years After His Death (or Presumed Death)


In honor and remembrance of Andy Kaufman, the great performance artist, comedian and self-proclaimed “song-and-dance man,” on this, the 30th anniversary of his death, I give to you the complete, extensive interview sessions I shared with the major players surrounding the release of last year’s debut and posthumous comedy record, Andy and his Grandmother. Released by Drag City, the LP/CD/MP3 was a collection of over 80 hours of Kaufman source material and ideas recorded on microcassette from 1977-79. Referencing his intent to make a experimental comedy record from his ramblings, practical jokes and provocative phone pranks, Rodney Ascher and Vernon Chatman edited the 80-hours down to 48 minutes of strategically arranged soundbites that they hope maintain Kaufman’s desired attitude, delivery and overall product. The following interviews were conducted for a story published on August 30, 2013 and can be viewed here:


This second installment of interviews is with compiler and producer of the record, Vernon Chatman. Besides his work on Andy and His Grandmother, Chatman is also known for his work as a standup comedian, television writer (Late Night with Conan O’Brien, Chris Rock Show) and he is currently a producer on Louie C.K.’s FX comedy Louie.

Ladies and Gentlemen, Mr. Vernon Chatman


So, let’s get into this. How did you get involved? How was this project presented to you?

Dan Koretsky from Drag City just called me up and said, “Hey, I have an interesting project for you.” And he explained the situation: There’s 82 hours of these microcassette tapes and Lynne doesn’t want to go through them, but wants someone to go through them to put together the album that he was sort of working on. It was a daunting, giant project, but I couldn’t resist. It was also wrong. From the outside, my immediate reaction was “of course,” but beyond that, was there something wrong and flawed about this? Especially since I never met him. It was something that seemed impossible to fully succeed at. I like impossible things and I think Andy always had an aura of impossible, and he worked with the impossible as one of his tools and tricks so I just thought, “alright.”


What was the reasoning that they ultimately selected you? How taken aback by it were you?

I’ve done some projects, and I’ve done a bunch of comedy that fucks with what is real, and fucking with people aggressively. I did a strange project with Drag City and had a good relationship with them. They knew that I was a guy who did comedy and was interested in the weird ways of putting it together. It was called “Final Flesh.” It was a bizarre movie. I’ve also spent a bunch of time editing over the years—editing as a way of building something.


I talked to Lynne a little bit and she said that she would pick up one of the cassettes every now and then and play it, but would you say you are the first person to ever hear these things all the way through in their entirety?

I think so. I think Dan Koretsky listened to them as well. I’m not sure if he listened to the entire thing, but I think that he did. Then it was just me and my editor Rodney. I think we are the only ones who totally went through them. I doubt even Andy himself went back and listened through the tapes. That was one of the main things, just getting a glimpse of somebody on a real time level for such a long period of time is one of the closer ways that you’ll even be able to get a sense of somebody long-dead or long-supposedly-dead was like.


Tell me about the time frame. When were these presented to you and how long did you decide to take with them?

It wasn’t a decision to take way too long. I can’t remember, but I’m thinking it was three years ago. It was a long time ago. It took a really long time to go through the tapes and it took a really long time to just start assembling and mixing and trying the various orders and choosing just what ultimately stands out and what’s an interesting blend of what’s there and then trying to spending enough time assessing just what it was that Andy was going for within this. It just took forever.


Were you the one who digitized them?

No, I think it was Dan Koretsky or someone working with him who did it. So while he was digitizing it he listened to it a bunch.


So were you ever presented with the actual box of tapes?

No. The closest I have to that is just some sort of photocopies of the labels.


Yeah, tell me to what extend he annotated the tapes. Were there any notes?

He notated to an extent that made me forget the idea of relying on that at all. It was mostly scribbles and it was just bullet point things to remember. It was clear—I never went to them for reference once I realized the pattern of what was on there. It wasn’t like “Use this! Use This!” There weren’t directions on there. It was pretty clear during the tapes what he was most enthusiastic about, whether he more focused on something that was more presentational or if he was just giddy about what was happening and aggressively driving down the line of torment or whatever kind of comedy he was doing.


Were there any permissions that needed to be granted from anyone on the tape?

You know, I don’t know the actual process that it went down, but we bleeped out any names that might have been recognizable to some people, but it doesn’t seem like there’s any issue. Almost everyone on the tapes was very aware of it. The process of the whole experiment wasn’t really a hidden tape recorder thing, it was more of “Hey check this out I have a tape recorder” and dragging them into whatever strange thing he is going to spin around them and get them wrapped up in, the confusion to the point where they forget that there’s a tape recording… or they’re increasingly angry that it’s being done.


I didn’t know too much about who was on the tapes, so when I talked to Lynne, I just assumed that she was one of the women on the tape. But I was totally mistaken. So, I guess what was the time frame of when the tapes were recorded? Is there an exact beginning and end?

It was 1977-1979 and I think that there are clear records on the tape where you know what time of year, what month and then there was one time where he had a tape on and he was going around New York City and messing around with people dressed like Santa Claus. Then there was the time he was messing with Santa Claus as a Tony Clifton type of guy. Then he was messing with a Hare Krishna guy. Then on New Years he went to Times Square– he went around making speeches and made an event of the moment. Those were certain moments when we knew where he was. Then there was a time, maybe all of June, so it was 30 days and in the height of his effete, so that tape was on and everywhere he went he would be recognized and he took a month off just to meditate.


That being said, was it painful to take certain things out and were there things that you wish made the final cut but would have changed the tone or ideal of his record?

Hopefully the balance is right. There are definitely certain things I went back and listened to and put on a podcast and thought “wow that was funny, why didn’t we put that on the album?” There was a thing where he did a goofy voice and went to the Empire State Building and he was talking like this the whole time and asking silly questions. And he would keep saying “King Kong, King Kong” and he was tormenting people for a really long time, and there were so many great really funny reactions. Lynne even mentioned that she thinks he probably wore a costume for that and put on a big overcoat and glasses. People eventually threw him out. It was really funny, but for me it never quite filled in the picture, you couldn’t really get the sense of the context for it. And there were a few things where he messed with people in the foreign man voice, which is so iconic and people really identify with him. I thought this is exciting and this is before Taxi and he’s doing that character and confusing them, but nothing like that made it either. The weird thing is, the points where he was being the most unlikable, shall we say, I made sure NOT to steer clear of that because it would make him seem unlikable. Sometimes when he’s being really aggressive and pushing people to the point where they’re upset—people he’s close to like friends, and people he’s not close to—I just thought that is so in him, and it’s such a driving point of what makes him so entertaining, and also he so often went into those things that I thought those tapes should offer the side of him that you didn’t get to see in other places. Certainly the intimacy of talking to a woman after he had a one- night-stand with her and pressing her to explain for the tape-recording audience what it was like for her and how she liked the sex, and just dragging her deeper and deeper– asking for the details, insisting it would be great for the album. It was really intense. I wanted to make sure I wasn’t preserving some precious legacy or view of this loveable guy, I just wanted to include what he thought was entertaining, and what I thought was entertaining even if it’s somewhat complicated.


That being said, it’s billed as a comedy record. It’s what he would think of as a comedy record, but as far as what you get out of it, it’s almost as much as a documentary of his life being his work. Was that always his concept for the record?

It’s hard to say. I really didn’t want it to be a documentary or a biography as far as a celebration of the man’s life. I wanted it to be a piece of entertainment. He didn’t call himself a comedian, but he certainly thought of himself as an entertainer. He was certainly interested in entertaining. I certainly wouldn’t call this a comedy album because he didn’t call himself a comedian. But he did work in these formats and I think when he says it on the tapes that he’s making an album. I mean he wrote screenplays, he wrote television, he did variety shows, he always worked in familiar formats and worked within his version of what he finds entertaining. In the end you know he did it in the form of wrestling, things people never messed with. This was about following what his intentions were, and his intentions were most clear when he was doing something that was really entertaining and he would get excited about how good it would be on the album. That’s really what I thought should go on the album. Intrinsically that’s going to be a look into how he operates, because the strange line between the shifting line or circle or whatever between his life and his entertainment, and him being in character or out of character, or him being on or off. It’s all of these things. There’s a strange non-line there. That’s part of the entertainment. But in terms of getting a behind-the-scenes glimpse– behind some famous person– that I don’t care about. I don’t think he cared inherently fucking with that stuff.


Did he give any cues or even notes to himself on the cassette or is it just material. Like on the record there are dogs and car horns blocking names. Is that something he suggested within the tapes? Or is that something to protect the legalities?

That was totally whatever lawyers got together and thought was the smart thing to do because of these women. So we had to bleep it, but me and Rodney thought lets have something in the spirit of Andy. Even the bleeps are provocative and irritating and childlike and almost insulting to the two women.


How much did you labor over sequencing and how to order it to create a mood?

It’s a little bit in the order that it happens chronologically, but mostly the stuff at the beginning was in the very few takes. There are a few things that build upon each other. We have the woman he had the one-night-stand with, and then there’s the other woman that he had a strange relationship with, that he may have been dating, and then the he eventually wants the two women to fight. Those kinds of things build to something. And that woman’s reaction to these tapes… well, I don’t want to give the rest away but, the last track… we went through a lot of versions and we wanted to have a lot of variety.


How difficult was it to determine who these people were and if they were reoccurring?

Yeah, it would be a funny thing where he would be having this conversation very early on where he was saying how he needed to get laid and this woman on the phone was naming names and he would say “yeah bring her by, bring her by” and “I’ll have sex with all of them. If you bring 20 women I’ll have sex with all of them” “Really”, “Yeah okay, I’ll set you up,” and he says, “no do it I’m serious.” Then like a minute later you realize that it’s his sister that he’s talking to who is setting him up. So obviously they were very close. He was himself with everybody. He would talk about those kinds of things in the same way. But then again when he talked to his parents he’d call them “mommy” and “daddy”. He’d come home and say “Mommy do you have any ice cream?” It was very, very kid-like. He spent a lot of time talking to his grandma. He was very sweet to her but also loved to push her buttons and drive her crazy, just like you know he did when he was 7. It was precisely the same. You could tell she liked it, but she dreaded it, and you know he was very much of a golden boy with the family. You have this really nutty kid who never changes. He always keeps that childlike sense of messing around his entire life. Then there are other times you can tell it’s he manager George Shapiro, or Bob Zmuda and there are people who I knew or knew what they sounded like. Then there were total strangers. Sometimes he would call a critic that wrote something that he didn’t like or call a fan that had written him a letter and have them come out and spend the day and the next phone call would be from the woman who you hear a lot who was curious why he cancelled plans with her to spend all day with this fan he had never met. He would say, “I made her whole day; I was very important to this girl.”


Did you receive or seek out any advice from Lynne or Bob about how to go about doing the record?

I didn’t rule the idea of that out in the beginning. But at the end of the day it felt a little purer to just have it dumped into my head and shake it all out and filter it out. There were questions that I would want to ask, but I would have to put so much in context that the person would have to listen to the whole thing, which they didn’t want to do anyway and it would take forever. So, between me and Rodney, who also listened to everything, we played a lot with the sequencing. It’s a gamble, but it’s not going to be perfect anyway.


Did you meet the people at all? Lynne or Bob?

No, I still haven’t. It’s still a very isolated thing. But I am very happy that they liked it, I’m crazily honored that they asked me to do it.


Are there any ideas to release or would you be into releasing the whole thing now that it’s digital?

I guess I feel like that’s not my decision. His intentions for the tapes seemed pretty clear, which was to make an album. Other than that, that’s a personal decision. I doubt he’d be against it, but I guess it’s not my call.


With the prevalence of this tape recorder don’t you find it strange that it wasn’t in his biographies or mentioned anywhere previously. Do you find that strange? Had you heard of these tapes before this project was presented?

I don’t think so. I don’t remember if it’s ever mentioned in any of his books. It’s 82 hours over the course of 2 years, so it’s not like him and the tape recorder are inseparable. And Lynne wasn’t around at that time. It’s kind of interesting because it was just a fly on the wall or a drop in the bucket of his life years, to me it kind of makes it all the more interesting that it wasn’t some extraordinary event. This is just how he lived. He wasn’t behaving differently with the tape recorder or without it. He could put on a costume and mess with people for two hours whether he had a tape recorder or not.


To your knowledge did he ever shop the idea of a record around or was he thinking of doing it after his death?

No, it’s so hard for me to say, but based on what I heard on the tapes, he said he had a record deal with Columbia records. I have no idea if that’s true. I get the idea that it’s not. I don’t know his intentions. There were conversations with his manager where he talks about the tapes in relation to his death and having these tapes as a record of what lead to his death. The intentions of when it’s done or when to do it, I don’t know.


Andy Kaufman: 30 Years After His Death


It was 30 years ago and a day that Andy Kaufman passed away. And despite three decades without him, his legacy lives on through the work of others. He pushed the limits of comedy through both innocence and seeming insanity. Decades ahead of his time, both the edgiest of comics to the most mild-mannered performers of today all seem to take a page from his life’s work– whether they credit him or not.

In honor and remembrance of Andy Kaufman, the great performance artist, comedian and self-proclaimed “song-and-dance man,” on this, the 30th anniversary of his death, I give to you the complete, extensive interview sessions I shared with the major players surrounding the release of last year’s debut and posthumous comedy record, Andy and his Grandmother. Released by Drag City, the LP/CD/MP3 was a collection of over 80 hours of Kaufman source material and ideas recorded on microcassette from 1977-79. Referencing his intent to make an experimental comedy record from his notes-to-self, practical jokes and provocative phone pranks, Rodney Ascher and Vernon Chatman edited the 80-hours down to 48 minutes of strategically arranged soundbites that they hoped maintain Kaufman’s desired attitude, delivery and overall recording aspirations.

Over the next week I will publish three exclusive and unedited interviews with those special people who have had a rare glimpse into the life and work of Andy Kaufman. Our first in-depth conversation is with Andy and His Grandmother editor, Rodney Ascher– one of the only people to have heard all 80 hours of tape that went into the final condensed recording.

Excerpts of the following interviews appeared in a story for Esquire published on August 30, 2013. The edited story can still be seen here:



Hello? Is this Rodney?

Yes it is.

Rodney, this is Nolan calling from Esquire, how are you?

I’m good; I was expecting your call.

So I guess, starting at the top, how did you become part of this project?

Well, in a lot of ways, it was just really good luck. I think my understanding was that Lynne [Andy’s girlfriend at the time of his death] took the tapes to Drag City who had worked with Vernon [comedian and co-editor] before. He clearly had a sensibility that complimented Andy Kaufman. Me and Vernon have some friends in common and at one point were talking about collaborating on a project that never came to be and at one point he started contacting me. I’m not sure why he chose me to be a partner on it. We never worked together except on that, and nothing that got passed around together. I guess he thought that I would get it.

What was your exact role in this? What were your responsibilities in the project?

I was the editor. I was the guy who had all the recording in my computer. Vernon had gone through the tapes and logged most of them. He had indicated which bits seemed liked the best ones. So I would pull them and put them together and find other things that I thought were promising—pre-developed ideas that I thought were interesting that I wanted to put on there. Me and Vernon, and I don’t know if there was anyone else, who listened to all 80-plus hours, but we really took some time with it and we studied it for over a year. Certainly when he sent them over I was working on a graphics project, so I was spending most of my days in Photoshop or doing other work. It took a lot of time and it required a lot of brain. I had five or more hours to a day that day that I was chipping away at pixels. I would notate parts that really stuck with me. In a way I would like for the whole thing to be available streaming some way because it would be a completely different experience. For me it was like time travel. It could be a birthday party where he took his tape recorder with him for three hours it would be on the table and you could hear voices going in and out, and you would find the narrative. There was no point where the characters would be introduced, you would just have to know who they were in the context and maybe twelve hours in you would finally hear somebody’s name. It’s incredibly satisfying. For me, just being able to listen to all 84 hours was the reward for doing the project.

To what degree was there knowledge of these tapes before they came to light? Was there a general knowledge that these tapes existed to anyone outside of his closest friends?

I’m a pretty big Andy Kaufman fan and I’d never heard of them. After I started working on the project I went back and read some of his biographies and you’d never hear about them. And that’s weird to me because it was very clear to listening to the tapes that he always had this recorder with him everywhere, and he was always making himself a pain in the ass with it. So I would have expected if he was doing an interview with his friends or people he worked with in those days they would know he had that tape recorder with him. You know, I don’t have bachelor’s degree in Andy Kaufman outside of this project, but I’ve never come across any reference to it anywhere. Have you?

No, I hadn’t heard anything about it until this project came to light. So when did knowledge of these tapes become available? And who had them?

Well I’ve never spoken to Lynne. I’ve only worked and talked to Vernon. I’ve talked a little bit with the Drag City guys as well. My understanding is that Lynne always had them and was aware of them in general, but never really listened to them all. But, on her to do list, was to get this record that he had intended made out of them. Maybe she just had a casual conversation with someone at the record label. Are you going to talk to Lynne? From what I gather, is that they were always somewhere, maybe in storage and she had the problem with figuring out how to get them out there. Maybe it was on her “to do” list. I think our project started right after that book of letters, you know. So maybe it was on her “to-do” list after that.

Was there any sort of permissions of people involved to get the tapes made available? I guess she would be the main person.

Again, that’s something out of my responsibility. Outside of Vernon producing it and Drag City, I don’t have any ideas what they did. I thought this was amazing and this needs to make it to the record and then there’s Vernon who would say “there’s a part where Andy and Bob were in a taxi cab and we should take that out.” And maybe we would clean up the digressions and put that together. There are maybe 20 tracks on the record, but on the rough cut there were probably 40.

As far as editing, one of the tracks seems spliced together. Is that something that you guys did, or is that something he did before on his own?

With that kind of stuff, we would take cues. There wasn’t a written document on how to put these things together– but what was really interesting is that when he was working with Bob Zmuda, there were parts of the recording where he would say what his vision was in putting these things together. The tapes were all raw, but within them there was a lot of talk about things that he wanted to do, and we would try to follow up with that as close as we could.

What about the horns and the dogs that cover up the characters’ names? Is that something that he wanted to do?

That happened after the fact, but we did it the way that he we thought he would have wanted.

So he wanted to keep the names out of it essentially?

I think– and Vernon would have more to say about it– I think that he wanted to keep an emotional quality to it and this particular set than a particular person. There’s a ton of stuff on the tape that had a lot of documentary value and wasn’t necessarily funny. Vernon had a really good focus and thought that we were here to make the comedy album and that this is recorded for, and not to create, a biographical documentary. I’m sure the tapes have that biographical value to someone who is creating a documentary type of project.

Well, after saying that, would you even say that this could even be billed as a comedy record? It’s not a straightforward comedy record in the traditional sense. Even with Andy pushing his own comedy limits, don’t you think people would even question to what degree this is even a comedy record?

He even talked about that on the record. He talks about it conceptually and that there’s something funny about presenting it as a comedy record while its actually emotionally much more complicated than that. Even the idea of presenting it as a comedy record is part of the joke.

He talks on the recording about perhaps having a deal with Columbia records to release a comedy record. Was there any validity to that?

I heard that multiple times on the record, but I haven’t come across any documentation or paper work– nor have I read anything about that. I don’t know whether that was something to fool people he was documenting or whether there was a contract. I have no idea.

How hard was it when it came to sequencing and segueing each segment into each other? And beyond that, were you trying to keep a certain tone throughout?

We tried a couple of different sequences, and it was about creating an ebb-and-flow in a way. When you talk about the difficulty of it– in the course of the record he talks about making a record called Andy and His Grandmother, and I think there’s another section, which may not have made the record, or it might be in “I Want Those Tapes,” where he throws out another idea for the title of the album. Each of which suggested a different conceptual version of it. Arguably each could have been a separate album. He could have picked one or the other. Also, a lot of the stuff develops chronologically, like the relationships with these women. I think that the sequences, a lot of them, are dictated by the chronology of what happens. There’s also some stuff intermingled with it, like with the evolution of the relationships with the women on the record.

Are there any specific things that didn’t make the record that you’d like to reference? Or things you wish made the record?

A lot of the ambient stuff was really interesting. He was in New York City in 1979 on New Years Eve and he goes through 2 or 3 hours and you hear the jostling of the crowd and the ball drop, and that was another thing that was like time travel. It’s like “Wow, I’m in New York with Andy Kaufman on December 31, 1978,” which wouldn’t have made for any track to listen to—it’s a 3 hour ambient listening– but to me it was amazing. To be able track the travel on the calendar from this day– then he goes back to LA. There were a lot of things that were documented and we know the dates. There was the meditation retreat he went on and the hours before it he would talk about going there and the hours leading up to going there. And then he would get there, so when you listen to it in the long form, you’re tagging along to his life in some ways. And there’s a funny bit that Vernon did on a podcast about a trip to the Empire State Building and he was doing the “Foreign Man’ character, and he was messing with people in character. There were also parts I liked where people would realize who he was, but it never quite made sense that it made it to the record– but for me, it would be very dramatic.

Do you know exact timeline of these tape recordings?

Not off hand, but they were labeled. I believe it was about two years– maybe 1977-79.

It must have been interesting how many times he had to change the tape– because you can’t fit much on those little recorders.

Each tape side was about an hour. They were labeled things like “Tape 22, Side 1.” Sometimes there was an entire hour of nothing. Like sometimes he turned it on and left it on and there would be just a couple of voices and I would listen to the whole thing and see if there was anything on there. It was a mystery factor of what was coming up next. Vernon had a jumpstart on me, so he listened to the first half before I started and then I caught up.  

Did you just get the digital versions or were you able to see the tapes and how it came to Drag City?

I only got the audio files. Somewhere along the way I got to see the JPEG file of the cassettes and the hand-labeled day and cassette number on them.

That was my next question… were they notated at all by Andy? Did he include any notes?

I didn’t see any paperwork or transciption of paperwork, but there are parts where he says, “Oh this part would be really good like this, or I can see it going like this,” because he has these conversations with friends and family about the tapes. There’s that track where he tells his girlfriend, “Hey this conversation would be really great on the record.”

Who is the narrator on this record?

That’s Bill Hader from Saturday Night Live. That was recorded to just put things in context a bit. Conceptually there was something about it being stark, but it was just to help people along a bit. By recording something today by a contemporary, we are not trying to pretend that the narrator was recorded back in the 1970’s. We tried to make that clear.

How did it feel to be one of the first people to hear these recordings?

It was incredibly exciting and a great privilege. A couple of strange accidents resulted in this coming my way, but it was very frustrating because I couldn’t talk about it to anyone. We tried to keep it very quiet until the project came along. So, I was on this time travel with Andy back to the 1970s and it was like seeing an incredible movie or reading an incredible book that nobody else knew existed. And besides Vernon I didn’t and couldn’t talk about it with anyone.

What was the last thing that was on the tapes? Did he do them til the end of his life? Is there a sense of closure at the end?

No, it ends in ‘79 and he died a few years later. There wasn’t a very satisfying ending. He says, “I have now finished the recordings and we are now going to have my friends edit them.” I’m not sure what the last part, but there wasn’t some climatic satisfying ending.

You wonder why he decided to stop if it was such an important part of his life for so long.

Yeah, it could be the question of clearly wanting to make the record, but there was probably also some sort of process he had to take to work on new material. Did he look back at the tapes that were such an important part of his process? Did it become less important? Did he look at the tapes and say, “Jeez, I already have 83 hours, there’s gotta be a record in there somewhere. Either way I didn’t find a tiny bow at the end of it.”  

What do you think the perception or the ultimate goal of these recordings is? It will obviously surprise people. Is this closure?–Or does this prove to be yet another facet that no one knew about in an already complex man?

There’s that and there’s also the great quality of just—you can’t underestimate the great quality of how influential he was and how our culture has gone. You look at comedy today and look at the special that he did for ABC, it looks like what Zach Galifianakis did for “Behind Two Ferns” or some of the fantastic stuff you see on Adult Swim. He did it 30-years-ago, and he didn’t do it on a weird cable channel at midnight. He did it on one of the only networks at the time– on the level of that certain conceptual post-modern sensibility we are still working out permutations of. These tapes take the real life and shows how it mixes into his performance. There’s certainly perhaps an uncomfortable quasi-TMZ quality, but again, that’s where our culture has gone since. There’s also that taxi ride stuff. There’s a Borat-quality to that. He was exploring so many different styles of form that are still relevant at what people are doing today. It was so forward-looking. Like a lot of the best artists, he makes it seem so effortless, and when he does it, it seems so natural and inevitable. Of course he would do it this way because no one else would do it.

More information about Rodney Ascher can be found here:

The Hold Steady: Yesterday’s Kicks and Tomorrow’s Bruises

hs3 Over their ten-year career, the Hold Steady strategically amassed a catalogue of songs often centered on a recurring group of characters. Formed from the amalgamation of acquaintances and fictional figures, frontman Craig Finn introduced us to tragic heroes and fallen friends caught up in the life of the party. His skillful wordiness and spoken- word delivery embraced witty double entendres, juxtaposing modern day jargon with scholarly diction as he portrayed the ups-and-downs of the down-and-outs. And somehow he always seemed to stay positive. With their recent release of Teeth Dreams, the band’s sixth studio record and the first on their own Washington Square label, Finn’s songs seem to have naturally evolved from the post-adolescent after-party to the inevitable adult hangover. These are cautionary tales and proof that yesterday’s kicks become tomorrow’s bruises. As an aging songwriter with a repertoire of decadent characters, Finn acknowledges that his narrative had to change and that those on the continual stumble from the straight and narrow will inevitably fall. If rock music becomes classic rock by finding a sound, surviving the party and embracing maturity, then the Hold Steady may be well on their way to being considered “classic rock” in an indie-rock generation. If their message seems heavy, their instrumentation is even heavier– any somber sentiment quickly finds solace by leaning against the towering guitar solos that were hinted at before, but now actualized in skyscraping realities. The guitars have finally soared to reach Thin Lizzy heights, while Finn’s lyrics are still born to run like the Boss. I was privileged enough to catch up with the Hold Steady’s Craig Finn days before the release of their new record Teeth Dreams, and just weeks before the band’s very recent shows in the Northeast.

hs2 Where are you guys at now?

We’re in Brooklyn. We leave for tour tonight. Our first show is in Portland, Maine tomorrow.

So tell me about Teeth Dreams. I’ve always had teeth dreams and it’s definitely my most recurring dream theme of all time. You even take it a step further and talk about having tooth dreams about other people. I find that especially intriguing.

Yeah, it’s funny, since we named the album Teeth Dreams… as soon as the title came out there have been a lot of people that have come to me and said, “God I’ve had those dreams too.” And actually I’ve had teeth dreams, but I haven’t had tons of them. I’ve had them where I’m brushing my teeth and they fall out. Which I think is fairly common. When we talked about naming the record, we did some searches on Google and found a ton of stuff on teeth dreams. Supposedly they’re caused by anxiety, but people will tell you specifically about money and personal appearance, but I think it’s just a lack of control in general. But you know, I came up with “last night her teeth were in my dreams”—someone else’s teeth and I thought that was funny and I was re-reading Infinite Jest and I realized there was a scene in there where one of the characters is explaining his dreams to his brother and he’s been having dreams about teeth and they’re someone else’s teeth. In his dreams, not only do someone else’s teeth keep showing up, but then all these bills for them. So he was not only getting these other teeth in his dreams, but being asked to pay for them which kind of amps up the idea that they might be about money.

Was that something that connected these songs? A unified anxiety?

Yeah, we started talking about it. When we started writing the record I was thinking a lot about anxiety. I met this doctor at a cocktail party and he’s a general practitioner in New York and he was saying over half his visits are because of anxiety. People are thinking that something is wrong with them, but it isn’t. I thought that was kind of interesting. I don’t know if that was true 20 years ago or 40 years ago. Then the New York Times has an anxiety column. So I started thinking, “Jeez are we living in particularly anxious times?” I’m not sure. I think we do. I think we’ve just gotten so self-aware about our anxiety and so respectful of it that we almost nurture it. And obviously the pharmaceutical industry has some sort of influence over that.

You’ve had a lot of reoccurring characters in your songs. Are these new characters in any way? Has the songwriting changed?

I think some of the characters are the same. I’ve just gotten away from mentioning so many proper names. I wanted to explore a more elliptical thing. I think a great short story like Carver or something like that, it’s just as much about what they leave out as what they put in. I thought maybe always explaining who it is and what exactly they’re doing might end up hindering putting their own wholesome dreams and lives into the songs. I wanted to create a little more space for people to inject themselves into this world.

But when you get down to it, were these reoccurring characters real people that you knew in your life, or accumulations of many people?

They don’t relate 1-to-1. I’m from Minneapolis and a lot of these songs take place there over the course of the Hold Steady. People from Minneapolis always ask me, “Hey is that character this person?” They’re not any one character, but they are certainly the type of people that I knew and I might take a little bit from somewhere and a little bit from somewhere else. But they weren’t ever one specific person.

It seems like this time around, instead of talking about the party, this seems like the hangover from the party and more of cautionary tale.

It’s definitely the darkest Hold Steady record. While the others had been especially hopeful and maybe positive and optimistic, this one may hold back on that optimism a bit. But you know, the last song on the record, we put a coda on the song. We knew we were going to end with that song, but the way we handled it was just so bleak. I mean I liked it, but it was like we can’t end things this way. Let’s give them a little bit of hope. Writing this record, I wasn’t in a particularly bad place or anything– I just wanted to explore that part of it a little more. And just being fascinated with this idea with anxiety and the idea of mental health and the way we treat it nowadays and the way we deal with our neurosis.

Would you say that by getting older it’s harder to hang on to these characters and narratives? Has your songwriting changed partly due to that?

Yeah, I think that… we started the band ten years ago and for the past ten years I’ve known a lot of people close to me that have struggled with substance abuse and mental health issues. It’s a pretty common thing, you know. I’m 42– when you’re 32 you might still be going along and having a good time, but at some point it starts to drag you down. It might be a change in perspective a little bit. At the same time, I’m drawn to and I’m trying to write characters that are a little older. I think that’s a challenge and it always has been. Rock and roll is often about a teenager and a convertible. But it’s also rock and roll so its 50 to 60 years-old now, so it doesn’t have to be. Great artists like Bruce Springsteen and Neil Young have written great songs about adults. hs Talk about starting your own label and how that came to be. Has that presented new challenges for you and the band?

Not really. The big thing is we did this covers EP for a fanclub thing. We needed some way to get it out to the fans. So we thought should we start a label? As this industry changes and more and more people hear music digitally, it allows us to in the future to escape album cycles and maybe put out more regularly. There’s a big gear up to put out an album and find a publicist and it allows us maybe in the future to put out music in smaller portions, and maybe be a bit more agile when it comes about. It’s yet to be seen what it will mean, but that’s the idea.

You talk a lot about unified scenes in your music. Is that something you’ve seen change over time? Are there still unified scenes like there used to be? Is it still alive and well in certain places?

Well, the record industry is certainly not alive and well. How many records you can sell in the age of Spotify is certainly very diminished, so I wouldn’t say the record industry is alive and well. But the music industry as a whole, people look at the licensing of music differently than they used to. You used to get in a lot of trouble if you gave your music to a car ad or something like that. Now it’s more accepted. But the last thing is that the live thing is always healthy. If you can get people to come to your shows, you can be okay. I always thought that the live shows had always been the crux of it because even if you’re selling a lot of records, there are still 4 people that are going to handle the money before you get it. There’s the guy in the store, the distributor, then there’s the label and maybe it gets to you, but not much. That’s a lot of hands. With the live show they pay you and you pay your agent. So you touch it first. In that very simple way the live show is always the biggest component of it.

You have always had a crazy amount of energy on stage and listening to the records versus seeing you live, you are an unsuspecting energetic frontman. Have you always been that way? Is it hard to conjure up that energy night after night?

I have to work on it a little more at [age] 42. I have to think about what I eat and drink—especially since I drink a little more than I used to. At the same time there are nights when I’m pretty sluggish when I get on stage, but it’s pretty easy for me to get into it with the loud music and the fans and the celebratory vibe. I get into it quickly. I’m not always great before or after a show, but it’s pretty easy for me to get into a good place while we’re playing.

You’ve spent a good amount of time in Boston, but with few exceptions your characters are very much Minneapolis based. Did you not find any inspiration here? Do you still have a little Boston in you?

Well, I was born in Boston. My parents lived in Massachusetts. I went to grade school in Boston and went back to Boston College. I spent some time there and there are parts of it that still fascinate me and I still have friends there. It’s definitely a part of my life, but I certainly don’t know it as well. If you put me in a car, I would definitely get lost. Whereas in Minneapolis I know it like the back of my hand, so that’s why I feel much more comfortable setting songs in Minneapolis. But I still do have love, a lot of love, for Boston.

Is the RAGE EP still available or was that just a limited time thing to get on?

I think you can still get it. It was a fanclub thing, but I think you can still get it on the website. If not we’ll probably re-release it. The big thing is it was for the fanclub. A friend of ours passed away and he was the unofficial leader of the Unified Scene Fanclub. He was kind of the center of it. He passed away suddenly, December 2012, and he left two kids behind, so the idea behind the RAGS EP was to raise money for the foundation for his kids, but for us we were able to formalize the fanclub and know where everyone is and how to get a hold of them.